UPDATE: 15.25am GMT 30 May – RESOLVED
Paypal have acknowledged the double billing issue!
Please see here and here.
If YOU are a merchant whose customers have been affected by double billing, Paypal have confirmed that you can EITHER refund one of the two transactions by yourself OR contact their merchant support.
Sincere thanks to Karen and Danny in Paypal for their help, for working together to resolve our problems and for keeping us informed along the way.
While we have received great service from two individuals at Paypal within the last 12 hours, this does not excuse the lack of communication or assistance that we were forced to endure in the previous two weeks. We remain distinctly dissatisfied with the way Paypal have handled this situation.
As far as we can see, ALL the issues we previously reported are now RESOLVED.
UPDATE: 13.45am GMT 30 May
We have just emailed all the requested information to our contact in the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations who has promised to further investigate our case.
It appears that Paypal really ARE capable of providing good support – it’s just a shame that it took so long (and a blog post?) for it to happen.
UPDATE: 13.05am GMT 30 May
The excellent chap now looking after our case in “PayPal Merchant Technical Support” has just updated us again:
I’m working with our management team to setup a procedure for all the PayPal merchant affected by this issue.
We will also post shortly on our forum an acknowledgement of this additional issue with subscriptions, where you can redirect your customers in case they need a clarification.
I’ll keep you posted.
While it has taken weeks for this to happen Paypal ARE now communicating and we hope that the remaining unresolved issues will shortly be resolved for all of us.
UPDATE: 12.55am GMT 30 May
We are delighted to advise that we have spoken to a very helpful person in the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations. She apologised on behalf of Paypal, is fully investigating our case at present and has noted all our points in relation to the lack of communication and assistance. We will keep you updated.
UPDATE: 12.05am GMT 30 May
We have received a further email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”.
After reviewing those transactions I fully agree with the description of the issue you gave me.
Folks – we hope this means that the double billing issues will be resolved shortly.
UPDATE: 11.50am GMT 30 May
We have now received a voicemail from the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations. They would like to speak to us about the ongoing subscription problems and double billing issues. They are due to call us back later today.
UPDATE: 11.20am GMT 30 May
We have received a further email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”. They have informed us that the missing subscription issue has been resolved as we established in our update at the end of this post at 11:20pm GMT yesterday.
They have also confirmed that they are investigating the double billing issue. We are very relieved to finally KNOW that Paypal are actively investigating and addressing our concerns.
We will update again as we hear more.
UPDATE: 7.40am GMT 30 May
We have received an email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”
Thank you for contacting PayPal Merchant Technical Support.
I will research this matter further and update you with more information as it becomes available. If you have any additional information or updates to your issue, please use the instructions in this email to update your ticket.
Thank you for your patience.
Although the double billing issue remains, in light of many of the other issues being resolved we are hopeful that this problem will be fixed shortly.
Many thanks to all of you for your support. Particular thanks to our customers who have been directly affected by these problems for their patience and understanding.
We would like to emphasise that if the problems had been “just” affecting StatCounter we could have lived with that (e.g. if payment to our bank account was delayed) but since these problems have impacted on our members also, Paypal’s lack of action is simply unacceptable.
We are not happy that these issues had to brought into the public domain like this, however, Paypal’s lack of communication and assistance left us with no other option.
It may be a coincidence, but on the day that we posted this blog, nearly all of the highlighted issues were reported as “resolved”, 14 days after all of the problems arose.
We would still welcome an official response from Paypal in relation to these these problems.
Hi folks,
The Issue
We are having ongoing, critical problems with Paypal.
In view of the complete lack of assistance from Paypal in this regard, we have decided that we have no option but to inform you, our members, about the facts of the situation. This will allow you to make an informed decision about whether to use (or whether to continue to use) Paypal.
Please note that these problems may arise not only in relation to payments made to StatCounter but in relation to ANY Paypal payments that you make. We hope that this post will equip you with the information necessary to make sure that YOU do not become another victim of this ongoing Paypal saga.
The Problems
On 15 May Paypal performed a site update – this is confirmed by Paypal here.
After this date numerous problems were reported across the globe:
- The Paypal Handling Cart feature completely broke down – see update below
- Cross border payments could not be made as the drop down country list did not work – see update below
- Customers have been flooded with hundreds of duplicate subscription emails from Paypal – see update below
- Payments from Paypal are no longer associated with the relevant subscriptions – see update below
- Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
- Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
- Merchants/customers are unable to cancel subscriptions – see update below
The main problem that we have with Paypal is NOT the list of issues above – we all know that errors happen – we are absolutely furious at the complete lack of acknowledgement or assistance from Paypal in relation to these matters.
At StatCounter we have tried phoning, emailing, posting on the Paypal forums… Many of our contacts are ignored, but even when we do get an answer all we are told is that “Upon review of your account, unfortunately we do not have a time frame for a resolution to your issue we are currently actively investigating your issue with subscriptions.” You can see our posts in the Paypal forums here and here.
It appears that all of these problems are the result of the update made by Paypal on 15 May. Typically, any software upgrades can be “rolled back” if they are found to be flawed. Paypal’s inability (unwillingness?) to do this does not bode well.
What does this mean for me as a StatCounter Paypal Subscriber?
Unfortunately, we will be unable to issue invoices to many of our customers who pay us via Paypal until such time as the above issues are resolved. This is because the “payment file” provided by Paypal and from which invoices are generated is incomplete.
There is also a danger that you may be “double billed”. Please make sure to check your Paypal account to see if this happens. Although we would be delighted to sort out any double billing for you, in the current climate of confusion we are unsure whether WE are actually receiving the erroneously charged amounts. This means that WE are not currently able to refund any of these overpayments to you. We strongly believe that since this is a Paypal error, Paypal should rectify the situation – and leave us to focus again on our members rather than cleaning up a mess of Paypal’s making. Please do report any double billing to us and we will take action to report each case directly to Paypal.
Other StatCounter Upgrade Options
Please note that you can also make subscription payments to StatCounter using your credit card directly, by cheque or by electonic transfer to our bank.
Conclusion
Folks – we sincerely regret any problems you are experiencing and assure you that we are doing our best to get all of these issues resolved for you. We strive to offer a high level of customer service and pride ourselves on being responsive to the needs and suggestions of our members. To have our hands “tied” in this way as a result of Paypal’s inaction is frustrating to say the least.
These problems with Paypal have already cost us thousands of dollars. We continue to expend large amounts of time and resources on these issues – resources which we would much prefer to concentrate on improving the service we provide to you. We would be very grateful for your patience at this time as we wait for Paypal to resolve these issues.
We would also ask you to be patient with any of our fellow internet merchants experiencing difficulties with Paypal at this time.
Please post any comments or questions below.
Notes:
- This post is not intended to alarm, instead it is intended to inform.
- We at StatCounter do not take any pleasure in having to report these issues to you, rather we feel at this point that we have no option but to do so.
- While we hope that this post will generate media attention which may force Paypal to finally act and respond to the various problems outlined above, it is not the intention of the post to generate publicity for StatCounter.
- As we like to try to accomodate the needs of our members Paypal is still currently available as a payment option on StatCounter for new upgraded account subscribers. This position is currently under review and opinions from our members in this regard are being sought here.
- Paypal, of course, have a right of reply to this post and should they wish to contact us, we would be happy to post their response here.
Other Links:
www.channelregister.co.uk
tech.blorge.com
www.finextra.com
Paypal Forums 1
Paypal Forums 2
Paypal Forums 3
Update 2pm GMT 29 May: This post by Paypal indicates that the following issues have been resolved:
1) For subscription signups, when trying to enter billing information users
are not be able to change the country on the billing page.
2) For merchants using “handling_cart” parameter with PayPal Shopping
Cart buttons handling amount is not charged.
To the best of our knowledge the other issues remain and do not yet appear to have been acknowledged by Paypal.
Update 9pm GMT 29 May: A post by a Paypal staff member here indicates that these issues (some of which we weren’t even aware of) have been resolved:
1. Cannot change ‘country’ for subscriptions.
2. Free trials not being charged once trial period is over.
3. Subscriptions with free trials not being shown in history log.
4. Can’t cancel an active subscription.
5. Multiple emails being recieved (sic) for subscription payments.
No mention appears to have been made of these issues:
# Payments from Paypal are no longer associated with the relevant subscriptions
# Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
# Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
The double billing remains the major issue of concern to us.
Update 11:20pm GMT 29 May:
Although we have still not received any official communications from Paypal, we can confirm from our own experience that payments from Paypal ARE now again being associated with the relevant subscriptions. For StatCounter members with Paypal upgrades this will mean that we can now issue you with your outstanding invoices.
We have confirmed in our account that the double billing issue persists:
# Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
As far as we are aware, the following issue also remains:
# Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
Dear Whomever you are at StatCounter:
PayPal are the biggest shits in the world. Anything you can do to get around their close-to-monopoly on the Web is great. Please keep me posted. I’ll be happy to send you an account of their dropping 400 sites as PayPal customers several years ago for “moral” infractions, when they decided that sites that even offered penis-shaped macaroni would be banned from PayPal. (They also decided that only “registered” works of art, such as the Sistine Chapel, could get past their ruthless ban on any kind of nudity anywhere on a customer site).
A few months later, after a barrage of media attention about this (some of which came from me, such as getting Forbes magazine to do piece on PayPal censorship), the turds decided to “reinstate” perrybrass.com, as if nothing had happened. I have since still not gone back to PayPal, and never want to. The most difficult thing is actually getting a human being to answer your questions there. One of their humanoid robots told me, “PayPal does not censor sites; we just decide who to do business with.” They dropped my site after about 5 years of doing business with me; I was told by many people in the industry, including at Verisign, that PayPal was in complete cahoots with the John Ashcroft “Justice” department, and when Ashcroft threatened to go after the Web for “porno infractions,” PayPal decided to aid and abet him.
Perry Brass
Regarding the professionalism of the “warning” email… I might agree that StatCounter could have sent a more succinct email, i.e., the bare facts only, without the narrative. Given the seriousness of the problem (double billings, etc), I’m inclined to give StatCounter the benefit of the doubt since customers might have though StatCounter was at fault–so long as they don’t use defamatory language. I too have been affected by recent bugs in the PayPal system (handling fees have been ignored, resulting in underpayment), and I’ve used both phone and email contacts with similarly frustrating results. These are major bugs that PayPal should have put at the top of the fix queue.
Update: the handling_cart problem seems to have been fixed as of this morning. I got an email from PayPal stating so, and a spot check of my client’s site confirms that handling fees are working now. I hope this means that they will soon be addressing the subscription and billing bugs affecting other merchants like StatCounter.
Regarding alternatives: I too would like an alternative cart+merchant solution, but frankly the garishness of the web sites for frequently-mentioned alternative merchants turns me off. They just don’t inspire confidence. Can anyone recommend an alternative cart+merchant solution that they have actually used?
Paypal scares me and I really wish something better would come along.
PayPal cannot be trusted. I would distance yourself from them as fast as possible.
From personal experience, I know that that the double billing situation has been going on for at least 3 years. When I first joined ebay 3 years ago I thought the concept of paying by paypay was fabulous and would make my life easier. Every payment I made via paypal was double billed, I was charged the same price twice on every purchase and the only clue I had about it was when I recieved a letter from my bank telling me that I was over £100 in debt. When I looked into it I discovered that I was being double billed for ever ebay purchase I had made through paypal. £50 worth of goods cost me twice the amount. At the time I didn’t have an overdraft on my account (I a very particular about borrowing money no atter how small an amount, and I didn’t want the temptation). Needless to say not only did I have to pay back the £100+ but also I had to pay bank charges on top for the privalige of being in debt. Getting help from paypal was like pulling hens teeth. I never did get my money back, and now I will not entertain paypal at all. I only used paypal for a month so I don’t know what happened after I gave up on them. I figured the problems would have probably been solved by now (not that I am prepared to risk using paypal again), but either these problems haven’t been solved, or something has gone wrong with the system again and some people are being affected. It just seems odd that only a few users of the paypal service are being affected by double-billing. I am sure if you have been using paypal for years with no problems you probably have nothing to worry about. New users however, would do well to keep an eye open for problems should they choose to use paypal.
i had a huge problem with paypal/ebay not doing anything about defective non working merchandise sent. i had to reverse it through my visa. paypal cancelled my account because i dared do that. they wouldnt do what they advertised they would not do
I don’t know if anyone has posted this yet as I need to run to get to work, and don’t have the time to read through the rest of the posts, but, if PayPal continues not to cooperate, the merchant and the customers affected can report then to the Better Business Bureau online at
http://welcome.bbb.org/
and possibly the Federal Trade Commission at
http://www.ftc.gov/
I would double check any requirements on the FTC, but I’m sure that PayPal will take notice if someone reported them. That goes on thier record as a business. just an FYI.
What an unprofessional email. In spite of your repeated claims that you don’t intend to smear PayPal, that is exactly what you are doing.
StatCounter Team Response:
Hi Kenneth,
We’re sorry to hear that you think we are trying to “smear” Paypal. This is absolutely not our intention.
Our members are being directly impacted by these problems and, in view of the fact that we have received no assistance from Paypal despite repeated requests, we are highlighting these problems in the hope of reaching a speedy resolution.
Our actions are motivated by concern for our members. We sincerely hoped that the situation with Paypal would not come to this – but we have found ourselves left with no option.
All we have done is outline the facts of the situation. It is up to you to form your own opinion on Paypal.
As outlined in the notes to our blog, if Paypal should wish to contact us, we would be delighted to post their side of the story here.
Well! This is all interesting. Luckily I had a VERY honest customer last week who informed me that her payment (which was instant) had been cancelled. Upon checking this was true – no email to me to say so mind you! She paid by direct deposit but how can this happen? I offer paypal on our website but I think I may just be taking it off.
Cheers Carolyn
We’ve had absolutely no problems whatsoever on two busy accounts in recent weeks or days and nor have any of our customers or suppliers in Ireland or abroad.
My positive experiences with their customer service helpline in Dublin have been in the last few days and weeks
Kind regards,
Stuart
StatCounter Team Response:
Again, that’s great news Stuart – unfortunately we are not so lucky. We sincerely hope that you continue to receive a great service and do not experience any of the problems being reported around the globe.
hi all, im using paypal on a number of sites without issue,the above talk of using banks and payment gateways is a non runner ,unless you can prove to the bank rep that your turn over will be high you are likely to be paying very high transaction fees,monthly account fees and more fees for you gateway,
i have ran in to one or two small issues over the years with paypal but weighed against the banks fees {bos 6 % on all transactions,plus monthly account fees, plus large setup fee,}i think paypal is actually quite cheap and is a great product.
Mick
I own two large web-sites… Paypal have made thousands from me and their service is still poor. Why don’t business customers who generate a lot of business given enhanced privilages and support? Paypal have terrible customer service, they don’t care about their business customers at all.
Been using PayPal for years, not one problem …
We’ve been using Paypal accounts for the last few years both to collect
money and to pay many of our service suppliers both in Ireland and abroad.
We’ve experienced no such problems whatsoever.
In fact, in my recent experiences with Paypal’s
Dublin based Customer Service helpline, I have consistantly met with friendly, professional,
efficient and proactive support staff.
Probably the best Customer Service that I have experienced in recent years either in Ireland or abroad.
With the rapidly decreasing standards of service and accessibility in Irish
SME business banking where local bank management and staff are no longer
allowed to engage with their customers, I am actually moving more and more
of my business away from the Irish banks and towards the likes of Paypal.
Even my accountant likes them !
Kind regards,
Stuart McNamara
StatCounter Team Response:
That’s great news Stuart, but, the problems we are reporting have only been happening since 15 May.
Our post is intended only to inform you about the situation so that you can decide on the basis of full information how to proceed.
All the best!
I have a feeling PayPal will be keen to resolve the situation after this blog post starts ranking highing in SERPs for the keyword “paypal” 😉
PayPal truly sucks. Too many people (myself included) start using it because it appears cheap and is quick, but, as I and StatCounter and many others have experienced, it is not suitable for commercial applications.
I too could not make contact with PayPal, by email, phone or special delivery to their registered office, I contacted the Financial Ombudsmen Service to find out what to do, they said they couldn’t help. I then contacted the FSA, filled out their extensive documentation to be told a month later it wasn’t applicable to them.
Thus it appears the likes of PayPal are unregulated and can operate their businesses in any manner they see fit.
Be warned!
We decided a long time ago that we will only deal with financial organizations that are governed by banking industry and FTC standards. PayPal is not governed by anyone but their own bottom line.
I am just sorry StatCounter had to find this out the hard way.
Thank you for heads up, it looks like a lot of users had no clue that PayPal is not regulated by ANYONE.
Use Moneybookers instead.
https://www.moneybookers.com/app/?rid=3514616
It is much better, cheaper and reliabel
Thank you for making a stand for all us “David’s”.
I have barely used PayPal but when I have it’s caused nothing but hassle.
Now, what can you do to help me with my troubles with New Heights?! (Furniture company that’s gone into administration taking £100s of pounds of punters money with none of the promised furniture to show for it …)
sting=stating