UPDATE: 15.25am GMT 30 May – RESOLVED
Paypal have acknowledged the double billing issue!
Please see here and here.
If YOU are a merchant whose customers have been affected by double billing, Paypal have confirmed that you can EITHER refund one of the two transactions by yourself OR contact their merchant support.
Sincere thanks to Karen and Danny in Paypal for their help, for working together to resolve our problems and for keeping us informed along the way.
While we have received great service from two individuals at Paypal within the last 12 hours, this does not excuse the lack of communication or assistance that we were forced to endure in the previous two weeks. We remain distinctly dissatisfied with the way Paypal have handled this situation.
As far as we can see, ALL the issues we previously reported are now RESOLVED.
UPDATE: 13.45am GMT 30 May
We have just emailed all the requested information to our contact in the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations who has promised to further investigate our case.
It appears that Paypal really ARE capable of providing good support – it’s just a shame that it took so long (and a blog post?) for it to happen.
UPDATE: 13.05am GMT 30 May
The excellent chap now looking after our case in “PayPal Merchant Technical Support” has just updated us again:
I’m working with our management team to setup a procedure for all the PayPal merchant affected by this issue.
We will also post shortly on our forum an acknowledgement of this additional issue with subscriptions, where you can redirect your customers in case they need a clarification.
I’ll keep you posted.
While it has taken weeks for this to happen Paypal ARE now communicating and we hope that the remaining unresolved issues will shortly be resolved for all of us.
UPDATE: 12.55am GMT 30 May
We are delighted to advise that we have spoken to a very helpful person in the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations. She apologised on behalf of Paypal, is fully investigating our case at present and has noted all our points in relation to the lack of communication and assistance. We will keep you updated.
UPDATE: 12.05am GMT 30 May
We have received a further email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”.
After reviewing those transactions I fully agree with the description of the issue you gave me.
Folks – we hope this means that the double billing issues will be resolved shortly.
UPDATE: 11.50am GMT 30 May
We have now received a voicemail from the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations. They would like to speak to us about the ongoing subscription problems and double billing issues. They are due to call us back later today.
UPDATE: 11.20am GMT 30 May
We have received a further email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”. They have informed us that the missing subscription issue has been resolved as we established in our update at the end of this post at 11:20pm GMT yesterday.
They have also confirmed that they are investigating the double billing issue. We are very relieved to finally KNOW that Paypal are actively investigating and addressing our concerns.
We will update again as we hear more.
UPDATE: 7.40am GMT 30 May
We have received an email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”
Thank you for contacting PayPal Merchant Technical Support.
I will research this matter further and update you with more information as it becomes available. If you have any additional information or updates to your issue, please use the instructions in this email to update your ticket.
Thank you for your patience.
Although the double billing issue remains, in light of many of the other issues being resolved we are hopeful that this problem will be fixed shortly.
Many thanks to all of you for your support. Particular thanks to our customers who have been directly affected by these problems for their patience and understanding.
We would like to emphasise that if the problems had been “just” affecting StatCounter we could have lived with that (e.g. if payment to our bank account was delayed) but since these problems have impacted on our members also, Paypal’s lack of action is simply unacceptable.
We are not happy that these issues had to brought into the public domain like this, however, Paypal’s lack of communication and assistance left us with no other option.
It may be a coincidence, but on the day that we posted this blog, nearly all of the highlighted issues were reported as “resolved”, 14 days after all of the problems arose.
We would still welcome an official response from Paypal in relation to these these problems.
Hi folks,
The Issue
We are having ongoing, critical problems with Paypal.
In view of the complete lack of assistance from Paypal in this regard, we have decided that we have no option but to inform you, our members, about the facts of the situation. This will allow you to make an informed decision about whether to use (or whether to continue to use) Paypal.
Please note that these problems may arise not only in relation to payments made to StatCounter but in relation to ANY Paypal payments that you make. We hope that this post will equip you with the information necessary to make sure that YOU do not become another victim of this ongoing Paypal saga.
The Problems
On 15 May Paypal performed a site update – this is confirmed by Paypal here.
After this date numerous problems were reported across the globe:
- The Paypal Handling Cart feature completely broke down – see update below
- Cross border payments could not be made as the drop down country list did not work – see update below
- Customers have been flooded with hundreds of duplicate subscription emails from Paypal – see update below
- Payments from Paypal are no longer associated with the relevant subscriptions – see update below
- Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
- Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
- Merchants/customers are unable to cancel subscriptions – see update below
The main problem that we have with Paypal is NOT the list of issues above – we all know that errors happen – we are absolutely furious at the complete lack of acknowledgement or assistance from Paypal in relation to these matters.
At StatCounter we have tried phoning, emailing, posting on the Paypal forums… Many of our contacts are ignored, but even when we do get an answer all we are told is that “Upon review of your account, unfortunately we do not have a time frame for a resolution to your issue we are currently actively investigating your issue with subscriptions.” You can see our posts in the Paypal forums here and here.
It appears that all of these problems are the result of the update made by Paypal on 15 May. Typically, any software upgrades can be “rolled back” if they are found to be flawed. Paypal’s inability (unwillingness?) to do this does not bode well.
What does this mean for me as a StatCounter Paypal Subscriber?
Unfortunately, we will be unable to issue invoices to many of our customers who pay us via Paypal until such time as the above issues are resolved. This is because the “payment file” provided by Paypal and from which invoices are generated is incomplete.
There is also a danger that you may be “double billed”. Please make sure to check your Paypal account to see if this happens. Although we would be delighted to sort out any double billing for you, in the current climate of confusion we are unsure whether WE are actually receiving the erroneously charged amounts. This means that WE are not currently able to refund any of these overpayments to you. We strongly believe that since this is a Paypal error, Paypal should rectify the situation – and leave us to focus again on our members rather than cleaning up a mess of Paypal’s making. Please do report any double billing to us and we will take action to report each case directly to Paypal.
Other StatCounter Upgrade Options
Please note that you can also make subscription payments to StatCounter using your credit card directly, by cheque or by electonic transfer to our bank.
Conclusion
Folks – we sincerely regret any problems you are experiencing and assure you that we are doing our best to get all of these issues resolved for you. We strive to offer a high level of customer service and pride ourselves on being responsive to the needs and suggestions of our members. To have our hands “tied” in this way as a result of Paypal’s inaction is frustrating to say the least.
These problems with Paypal have already cost us thousands of dollars. We continue to expend large amounts of time and resources on these issues – resources which we would much prefer to concentrate on improving the service we provide to you. We would be very grateful for your patience at this time as we wait for Paypal to resolve these issues.
We would also ask you to be patient with any of our fellow internet merchants experiencing difficulties with Paypal at this time.
Please post any comments or questions below.
Notes:
- This post is not intended to alarm, instead it is intended to inform.
- We at StatCounter do not take any pleasure in having to report these issues to you, rather we feel at this point that we have no option but to do so.
- While we hope that this post will generate media attention which may force Paypal to finally act and respond to the various problems outlined above, it is not the intention of the post to generate publicity for StatCounter.
- As we like to try to accomodate the needs of our members Paypal is still currently available as a payment option on StatCounter for new upgraded account subscribers. This position is currently under review and opinions from our members in this regard are being sought here.
- Paypal, of course, have a right of reply to this post and should they wish to contact us, we would be happy to post their response here.
Other Links:
www.channelregister.co.uk
tech.blorge.com
www.finextra.com
Paypal Forums 1
Paypal Forums 2
Paypal Forums 3
Update 2pm GMT 29 May: This post by Paypal indicates that the following issues have been resolved:
1) For subscription signups, when trying to enter billing information users
are not be able to change the country on the billing page.
2) For merchants using “handling_cart” parameter with PayPal Shopping
Cart buttons handling amount is not charged.
To the best of our knowledge the other issues remain and do not yet appear to have been acknowledged by Paypal.
Update 9pm GMT 29 May: A post by a Paypal staff member here indicates that these issues (some of which we weren’t even aware of) have been resolved:
1. Cannot change ‘country’ for subscriptions.
2. Free trials not being charged once trial period is over.
3. Subscriptions with free trials not being shown in history log.
4. Can’t cancel an active subscription.
5. Multiple emails being recieved (sic) for subscription payments.
No mention appears to have been made of these issues:
# Payments from Paypal are no longer associated with the relevant subscriptions
# Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
# Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
The double billing remains the major issue of concern to us.
Update 11:20pm GMT 29 May:
Although we have still not received any official communications from Paypal, we can confirm from our own experience that payments from Paypal ARE now again being associated with the relevant subscriptions. For StatCounter members with Paypal upgrades this will mean that we can now issue you with your outstanding invoices.
We have confirmed in our account that the double billing issue persists:
# Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
As far as we are aware, the following issue also remains:
# Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
I’ve been using PayPal on my site, inksite.com, since 2000 with zero negative issues. I’m familiar with the paypalsucks and paypalwarning sites, but I’ve never experienced any of the problems reported there. I have never had trouble reaching PayPal by phone on the few occasions when it was necessary. My business uses PayPal as an optional payment method along with Google Checkout and a traditional credit card payment gateway.
I have no particular love for PayPal. I think their fees are on the high side for smaller merchants. (Google Checkout has significantly lower fees for businesses the size of mine.) However, I have no kind words for any of my payment processors. Google Checkout has done a very poor job of making their system work smoothly with third party shopping carts. They don’t allow a comment field to be included with an order despite endless requests over two years. Google’s invoicing system is vastly inferior to PayPal’s. And PayPal has dozens of features that Google does not, including a way to take credit card phone orders. For subscription services like StatCounter, I’m not even sure if Google has a system to handle that.
http://checkout.google.com/support/sell/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=63440
I realize that StatCounter’s problems with PayPal are recent and very specific to the nature of their transactions. I can understand their frustration as it hampers their ability to conduct business and PayPal is not being responsive. My point is that taken in context, this should not condemn PayPal as a whole because there are millions of satisfied users who tend not to be very vocal about their satisfaction.
Is PayPal great? No. Are they any worse than their competitors? No.
StatCounter Team Response:
Hi Michael,
Many thanks for taking the time to comment. Our post is not intended to condemn Paypal as a whole – instead we hope it will spark enough attention so that these problems get resolved, not only for us, but for all the merchants experiencing difficulties at this time.
We are absolutely willing to give credit where credit is due – and if Paypal start to communicate, satisfactorily resolve all these issues, compensate their merchants and apologise for these problems – then we would be delighted to publicly acknowledge this.
Thanks for the warning. I have been a web designer for many years and despite my warnings customers still pay me with PayPal.
I advise them that until the cash is in my hands to spend then the design does not belong to them.
generally I don’t have problems and I sell about 15 20 items a mont,
However I recently had one instance where i wasn’t informed of an order and the customer had to prompt me direct as to where the goods were and also two instances where payment wasn’t made even though a credit /debit card was logged on the account it took fifteen days for payment to be made and in the meantime i’d made alternative arragements they then paid it again.
I eventually got it sorted out and received a phone call to apoligise for the mix up but I wrote to the chief executive eventually but of course it didn’t reach him/her but at least I got action .
All’s well at present.
I had to use Paypal recently for a monetary transaction. It is the worst company to deal with. They make arbitrary decisions without any explanation whatsover. I needed to transfer funds from one account to a family members account. I called, and I emailed expecting some form of immediate resolution. I got none. I agree with Andylat, if Paypal is getting in the way of YOUR reputation, it’s time to cut ties off with them and get your own merchant account. I will do every thing in my power never to use Paypal again. They have too much power, and in my mind a monopoly in the 3rd party merchant-vendor industry. You would be surprised how many other 3rd party merchants they own as well. Cut ties before you lose your reputation.
thank you so much for letting us know about this. you are handling the problem in a very professional and courteous manner. thanks!
I hear ya. I was a victim of PayPal’s once, too. Hope things will get resolved soon for you!
very refreshing, this seemingly personal touch from you on the oh so young and still clumsy, variable blob the distant internet will always be.
thanks for the straight forward and clear warning.
I just want to thank you guys for keeping us informed. I haven’t experienced the issues you’ve mentioned, but I’ll keep my eye on it. And if you ever decide to leave Paypal completely, I’m perfectly willing to set up direct payments from my business credit card. I’m phasing out eBay/Paypal myself.
I decided to add PayPal to the payment options on my website (against my better judgement but customers like it) and ran into a problem with the install. I e-mailed support and never heard back. A month later I received a survey from customer service regarding how well my problem had been resolved. After giving every question the lowest possible score and sending it off…….I have still heard nothing. I think I’ll just chance losing customers by not having them as a payment option.
I would like to tell that I ever tried to make business with paypal and after a while, seeing the way they were working (badly) I was finished with them at the moment they asked me to confirm with my Bank Account. For the work or business they are doing, the only think they really need is a credit card. They just need that, I have always refused to confirm with a bank account because they said that they need this bank account to work.. This company is in great demand by the hackers. So pay attention when you are doing business with paypal, don’t always accept what they ask.
I’ve never had any issues with them and I hope I never do.
Paypal has long been the kind of company I refuse to do business with. They arrange all their interfaces to obscure their charges and increase the likelihood that you will choose services that benefit them but that you don’t really intend to choose AND they are unnecessarily intrusive – having techies prying into customer transactions. I eliminated both my professional and personal accounts with them and will forego a transaction that offers PayPal as their only option.
I had closed my paypal account a long time ago because they refused to settle an account that was corrupted. I understand they didn’t settle with the seller either.
I signed up with XCoin and Google transactions just as a result of your post. However neither seems to offer the ability to transfer funds from the internet back to your bank account if you are in Europe. Xcoin does it for companies in the USA.
Any suggestions for Europe? I am an artist and sell prints and paintings online.
StatCounter Team Response:
We have also used 2Checkout.com in the past. While the service was not appropriate for our needs on a long term basis, I believe that it allows you to transfer money to a european bank account.
I too have had my issues with PayPal but I have always found someone to help me and correct the issues. If you are having trouble with communications with them I will be happy to personally represent you to get your issues resolved.
StatCounter Team Response:
Hi Gary,
Many thanks for your kind offer. If you have any contacts in Paypal who may be able to help resolve our issues, then we would be very grateful if you could report our problems to them.
I will send you an email with our contact details.
Thanks again.
I taught long considering wether or not to trust a second payment solution.
Luckely in the beginning there was (Europe) the IBAN solution.
Afterwards came the problem for people having Visa, Mastercard ou Paypal…
My customers are given the “choice” or to pay through their normal (internet) banking system for no extra cost or 2/ to pay through Paypal.
Of course the Iban payment is slighty cheaper for these customers as they have to wait a little bit longer (money has to arrive first on my bank account-only takes 2 workings days in Europe)
So : make 2 sums: one lower, one slightly bigger and leave the choice to the customer…
This works well for my company and in case they have to pay a second time: with (internet) banking there is no problem to schedule a payment on later dates (like paying the montly rent f.e.)
Good for you! The only way to hit these big guys where it hurts is to make their actions publicly known. They are not untouchable, and I am glad that you have reminded them of that fact.
Paypal really does have terrible (non-existent) customer service. I too stopped using them for exactly these reasons.