UPDATE: 15.25am GMT 30 May – RESOLVED
Paypal have acknowledged the double billing issue!
Please see here and here.
If YOU are a merchant whose customers have been affected by double billing, Paypal have confirmed that you can EITHER refund one of the two transactions by yourself OR contact their merchant support.
Sincere thanks to Karen and Danny in Paypal for their help, for working together to resolve our problems and for keeping us informed along the way.
While we have received great service from two individuals at Paypal within the last 12 hours, this does not excuse the lack of communication or assistance that we were forced to endure in the previous two weeks. We remain distinctly dissatisfied with the way Paypal have handled this situation.
As far as we can see, ALL the issues we previously reported are now RESOLVED.
UPDATE: 13.45am GMT 30 May
We have just emailed all the requested information to our contact in the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations who has promised to further investigate our case.
It appears that Paypal really ARE capable of providing good support – it’s just a shame that it took so long (and a blog post?) for it to happen.
UPDATE: 13.05am GMT 30 May
The excellent chap now looking after our case in “PayPal Merchant Technical Support” has just updated us again:
I’m working with our management team to setup a procedure for all the PayPal merchant affected by this issue.
We will also post shortly on our forum an acknowledgement of this additional issue with subscriptions, where you can redirect your customers in case they need a clarification.
I’ll keep you posted.
While it has taken weeks for this to happen Paypal ARE now communicating and we hope that the remaining unresolved issues will shortly be resolved for all of us.
UPDATE: 12.55am GMT 30 May
We are delighted to advise that we have spoken to a very helpful person in the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations. She apologised on behalf of Paypal, is fully investigating our case at present and has noted all our points in relation to the lack of communication and assistance. We will keep you updated.
UPDATE: 12.05am GMT 30 May
We have received a further email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”.
After reviewing those transactions I fully agree with the description of the issue you gave me.
Folks – we hope this means that the double billing issues will be resolved shortly.
UPDATE: 11.50am GMT 30 May
We have now received a voicemail from the Paypal Office of Executive Escalations. They would like to speak to us about the ongoing subscription problems and double billing issues. They are due to call us back later today.
UPDATE: 11.20am GMT 30 May
We have received a further email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”. They have informed us that the missing subscription issue has been resolved as we established in our update at the end of this post at 11:20pm GMT yesterday.
They have also confirmed that they are investigating the double billing issue. We are very relieved to finally KNOW that Paypal are actively investigating and addressing our concerns.
We will update again as we hear more.
UPDATE: 7.40am GMT 30 May
We have received an email from “PayPal Merchant Technical Support”
Thank you for contacting PayPal Merchant Technical Support.
I will research this matter further and update you with more information as it becomes available. If you have any additional information or updates to your issue, please use the instructions in this email to update your ticket.
Thank you for your patience.
Although the double billing issue remains, in light of many of the other issues being resolved we are hopeful that this problem will be fixed shortly.
Many thanks to all of you for your support. Particular thanks to our customers who have been directly affected by these problems for their patience and understanding.
We would like to emphasise that if the problems had been “just” affecting StatCounter we could have lived with that (e.g. if payment to our bank account was delayed) but since these problems have impacted on our members also, Paypal’s lack of action is simply unacceptable.
We are not happy that these issues had to brought into the public domain like this, however, Paypal’s lack of communication and assistance left us with no other option.
It may be a coincidence, but on the day that we posted this blog, nearly all of the highlighted issues were reported as “resolved”, 14 days after all of the problems arose.
We would still welcome an official response from Paypal in relation to these these problems.
Hi folks,
The Issue
We are having ongoing, critical problems with Paypal.
In view of the complete lack of assistance from Paypal in this regard, we have decided that we have no option but to inform you, our members, about the facts of the situation. This will allow you to make an informed decision about whether to use (or whether to continue to use) Paypal.
Please note that these problems may arise not only in relation to payments made to StatCounter but in relation to ANY Paypal payments that you make. We hope that this post will equip you with the information necessary to make sure that YOU do not become another victim of this ongoing Paypal saga.
The Problems
On 15 May Paypal performed a site update – this is confirmed by Paypal here.
After this date numerous problems were reported across the globe:
- The Paypal Handling Cart feature completely broke down – see update below
- Cross border payments could not be made as the drop down country list did not work – see update below
- Customers have been flooded with hundreds of duplicate subscription emails from Paypal – see update below
- Payments from Paypal are no longer associated with the relevant subscriptions – see update below
- Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
- Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
- Merchants/customers are unable to cancel subscriptions – see update below
The main problem that we have with Paypal is NOT the list of issues above – we all know that errors happen – we are absolutely furious at the complete lack of acknowledgement or assistance from Paypal in relation to these matters.
At StatCounter we have tried phoning, emailing, posting on the Paypal forums… Many of our contacts are ignored, but even when we do get an answer all we are told is that “Upon review of your account, unfortunately we do not have a time frame for a resolution to your issue we are currently actively investigating your issue with subscriptions.” You can see our posts in the Paypal forums here and here.
It appears that all of these problems are the result of the update made by Paypal on 15 May. Typically, any software upgrades can be “rolled back” if they are found to be flawed. Paypal’s inability (unwillingness?) to do this does not bode well.
What does this mean for me as a StatCounter Paypal Subscriber?
Unfortunately, we will be unable to issue invoices to many of our customers who pay us via Paypal until such time as the above issues are resolved. This is because the “payment file” provided by Paypal and from which invoices are generated is incomplete.
There is also a danger that you may be “double billed”. Please make sure to check your Paypal account to see if this happens. Although we would be delighted to sort out any double billing for you, in the current climate of confusion we are unsure whether WE are actually receiving the erroneously charged amounts. This means that WE are not currently able to refund any of these overpayments to you. We strongly believe that since this is a Paypal error, Paypal should rectify the situation – and leave us to focus again on our members rather than cleaning up a mess of Paypal’s making. Please do report any double billing to us and we will take action to report each case directly to Paypal.
Other StatCounter Upgrade Options
Please note that you can also make subscription payments to StatCounter using your credit card directly, by cheque or by electonic transfer to our bank.
Conclusion
Folks – we sincerely regret any problems you are experiencing and assure you that we are doing our best to get all of these issues resolved for you. We strive to offer a high level of customer service and pride ourselves on being responsive to the needs and suggestions of our members. To have our hands “tied” in this way as a result of Paypal’s inaction is frustrating to say the least.
These problems with Paypal have already cost us thousands of dollars. We continue to expend large amounts of time and resources on these issues – resources which we would much prefer to concentrate on improving the service we provide to you. We would be very grateful for your patience at this time as we wait for Paypal to resolve these issues.
We would also ask you to be patient with any of our fellow internet merchants experiencing difficulties with Paypal at this time.
Please post any comments or questions below.
Notes:
- This post is not intended to alarm, instead it is intended to inform.
- We at StatCounter do not take any pleasure in having to report these issues to you, rather we feel at this point that we have no option but to do so.
- While we hope that this post will generate media attention which may force Paypal to finally act and respond to the various problems outlined above, it is not the intention of the post to generate publicity for StatCounter.
- As we like to try to accomodate the needs of our members Paypal is still currently available as a payment option on StatCounter for new upgraded account subscribers. This position is currently under review and opinions from our members in this regard are being sought here.
- Paypal, of course, have a right of reply to this post and should they wish to contact us, we would be happy to post their response here.
Other Links:
www.channelregister.co.uk
tech.blorge.com
www.finextra.com
Paypal Forums 1
Paypal Forums 2
Paypal Forums 3
Update 2pm GMT 29 May: This post by Paypal indicates that the following issues have been resolved:
1) For subscription signups, when trying to enter billing information users
are not be able to change the country on the billing page.
2) For merchants using “handling_cart” parameter with PayPal Shopping
Cart buttons handling amount is not charged.
To the best of our knowledge the other issues remain and do not yet appear to have been acknowledged by Paypal.
Update 9pm GMT 29 May: A post by a Paypal staff member here indicates that these issues (some of which we weren’t even aware of) have been resolved:
1. Cannot change ‘country’ for subscriptions.
2. Free trials not being charged once trial period is over.
3. Subscriptions with free trials not being shown in history log.
4. Can’t cancel an active subscription.
5. Multiple emails being recieved (sic) for subscription payments.
No mention appears to have been made of these issues:
# Payments from Paypal are no longer associated with the relevant subscriptions
# Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
# Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
The double billing remains the major issue of concern to us.
Update 11:20pm GMT 29 May:
Although we have still not received any official communications from Paypal, we can confirm from our own experience that payments from Paypal ARE now again being associated with the relevant subscriptions. For StatCounter members with Paypal upgrades this will mean that we can now issue you with your outstanding invoices.
We have confirmed in our account that the double billing issue persists:
# Some customers have been and are being DOUBLE BILLED by Paypal
As far as we are aware, the following issue also remains:
# Merchants have not been receiving instant payment notifications or failure notifications
Unfortunately, companies like Paypal who abuse their position in the marketplace stutus as an oligopoly (or more realistically…a monopoly)…never learn a lesson unless they lose subscribers en masse. Paypal’s carefree attitude regarding this and similar situations is truly unfortunate and is in poor taste. I’m not sure how much good writing on a blog is going to do…unless, you take the message to the mass media.
For anyone who wants the Oztion site, here it is,
http://www.oztion.com.au/buy/
As from June 16 we in Australia who use ebay will have no choice but to use paypal.
All other payment methods will be banned.
This of course is a test case. if they get away with it it will become worldwide.
So! Come on Aussies, hit them where it hurts.
There are many submissions to the ACCC against this move (a government agency against crime, corruption and monopolies) the submissions are from banks, credit providers and loads of other organizations.
Personally, I’ve never used paypal and never will, so it looks like Goodbye ebay. I’ll go to hell before I let them stand over me.
Sellers are flooding to an Australian auction site called Oztion. There are no listing fees and the final value fee is much lower, plus there are varying payment methods.
I wish the ACCC would kick them both out of Australia.
By the way – EVERYONE who is getting shafted by PayPal should launch a formal complaint via the Better Business Bureau’s website and MAKE PayPal respond. If 500 complaints are filed – THEN they will respond!! HAHAHAHA! It will absolutely KICK their asses! File with your local BBB – so they have to respond in YOUR jurisdiction.
Never give up, never surrender!
Cheers –
Jonathan
We support our StatCounter Friends! No worries!!!!
Yes I sent a Antique table to someone they bought it of EBAY for $285 I sent it courier in Australia from Brisbane to NSW. It was delivered on a Monday and SIGNED FOR and on the TUESDAY the customer lodged a not delivered complaint with Paypal.
I sent a fax to Paypal with a copy of the couriers signed paperwork of the customers signiture and thought nothing more of it as that was proof of delivery.
But no I was wrong 10 days later I went to transfer my money in paypal to my bank account and noticed I was $285 down contacted paypal and was told they had REFUNED THE CUSTOMER as they did not reconize COURIERS PLEASE AS A LEGITMITE AUSTRALIAN BUSINESS. WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP. I FOUGHT FOR THIS MONEY BACK BUT DID NOT SUCEED.
Hi,
We got your messages through the Enterprise Ireland email list today.
We’ve experienced a few problems ourselves in the last week or so with double billing and no notification of purchases on our Irish Over Thirties site.
No probs whatsoever on our UK site.
All seems well now after a quick call to their Lo call number in Dublin, so maybe just a temporary glitch?
Hope it all works out for you all.
Susie
StatCounter Team Response:
Hi Susie,
We’re glad to hear that your problems have been sorted.
Unfortunately our problems have been going on since 15 May and the double billing issue persists despite numerous calls and emails to Paypal.
We remain hopeful that the issues will be resolved. Thanks for your comment!
Hi Guys,
Sorry about your dilemna.
I just recently signed on with a company in Canada using an American based funder. While the fees are a bit stiff for a small business like mine, I have nothing but good things to say about the service. I’m not sure if they can handle an acccount in Ireland, but you may want to contact
Voctor DeSilva
POS Systems
1-866-222-7997 ext 526
vdasilva@collectivepos.com
Good luck.
Hi !
May i suggest to use http://www.clickandbuy.com/US/en/
instead of paypal ?
I had a bad experience with paypal…
and i appreciate the professionnalism of clickandbuy.
Regards,
Ray.
Hi,
I have never had a problem with PayPal, ever. I think the world of them, so I hope and pray that all gets solved quickly for you and that there be peace with you and them. It was probably an honest mistake. Mistakes do happen and we all need to give a little grace whenever we can because all humans are fighting some kind of battle, whether it be emotionally, physically, in business, or even things that happen in this world mistakenly. Things happen. I’m an ebayer and have used PayPal for at least 5 yrs and I haven’t had a problem that they haven’t solved for me and it was just a very small thing that I can’t even remember what it was exactly, some typo or something but all was solved quickly and to my satisfactory. They were very professional about it and you all seem to be very professional as well. I think things happen for a greater reason and usually to make you stop and think about what is really tragic in this world, such as our precious troups being in the war daily. Yes, there are worse things happening so let us all count our blessings and be thankful for all the things that PayPal and You do that are right instead of focusing on a wrong or a mishap.
Believing for Good Things,
KK
We have found that Paypal is horrible. Many people have mentioned the paypalsucks.com website for reading horror stories, and there are several ex-Paypal employees and whistleblowers who have related similar tales.
We are no exception. We stopped using Paypal many years ago when we got frustrated with the lack of customer service from them, especially as it relates to overseas transactions. We sold an item to someone overseas, and they paid in their native currency, which we converted and deposited. However, on the exact day that a claim could be filed, this person filed it, and was completely unresponsive to e-mail and phone requests. We even had our attorney attempt to locate this person, but there was no responce, leading us to believe he was engaging in fraud.
Naturally, Paypal claimed that first we needed to get a signature confirmation, which is, of course, impossible overseas, as nothing like that exists. Then, when confronted with that fact, they said that Paypal “encourages” its users not to do business overseas, but yet, they will gladly accept multiple currencies. So, how does one “encourage” you to not do overseas business, but at the same time, take money from the very country it says they “encourage” you to not do business in (this was England, by the way). Fortunately, we had no money in the account, but their lack of any assistance was the final straw, and from what we have been reading, it looks like Paypal is using their non-FDIC status to the full extent they can, holding funds for no other reason then they can (and at the same time, conveniently collecting interest during this hold…).
For European money, we recommend PPPay.com, and our site (sfpincchicago.com) lists on its landing page several different payment sites that we have found to have superb customer service, many of them are actually based in the US, which is a rarity these days.
For Google checkout users, we looked into them, but found the lack of a telephone number to call customer service to be disconcerting. We prefer to always be able to have a phone number to call a live person, as e-mail communications are shaky at best, and you never get a problem resolved, not to mention going and sending multiple e-mails back and forth with a different person answering each time, spouting off a “stock” response similar to, “Thank you for your e-mail blah, blah, blah, We hope you continue to use us”, but never actually answering the question asked.
We have checked every aspect of the payment methods we accept thoroughly, especially since we have several customers from outside of the U.S., so finding a good payment service was mandatory.
We hope you will check out our site (sfpincchicago.com), and look at our payment services, and consider them for yourself.
Paypal sucks. They are not safe nor honest.
Their system has been hacked and they have not disclosed to their users. They have had massive user data leaks. they have failed to correct criticaL safety flaws for 2 whole years. Recently they were found to have the xxs flaw on their site.
They are also having massive amounts of ‘site issues’ and numerous uncorrected problems interfacing with the ebay users.
There is also that huge controversy about the global ebay payment service scheme, along with the calls for Global Boycott of Paypal and ebay both due to the monopolistic aspects and other unpleasant things as of late.
Really too many things to mention here.
People might want to go look on youtube about things like their customer service and repeated data leaks etc. You might be surprised.
Its a sad thing that a company can grow so big off the backs of you and me but when the chips are down they will not help or listen. This is a small story about my experience with paypal and although not related to your problem, it may help you and your members come to a decision about paypal. Through ebay, I ordered 3 items from China, they where £9.99 each and the postage was £52.00. The items delivered where different to the ones I ordered. Following paypal procedure, I contacted the seller who refused to cooperate so I started a claim through paypal. at the end of the day paypal would cancel my claim if I did not return the goods to China using ‘tracked postage’ which would have cost me £97.00 and could not guarantee they could recover all of my initial payment, if any of it. This is a vague description but I would have been out of pocket had I returned the goods as I am out of pocket now. On all ebay listings it is stated on the right hand side ‘Free protection up to £500 when you pay with PayPal. See terms’ In my case I had no protection from paypal because they made it easy for the con artist to operate and difficult and drawn out for me to put my case. They had automated reply’s that only give you two choices, BAD and WORSE. They either did not read my mail, couldn’t add up or just didn’t care. I am very reluctant to use paypal now but have to from time to time and would like to see an alternative form of payment system.
Gary P
Baby I got your money don’t you worry ?
I am cancelling my PP account forthwith, but where do I go now….. for the ebay moneys
Dear STAzicounters, welcome to the world where your Mum doesnt know the manager !!!!!
whoever your mum turns out to be……
SUGST U
bite it with the rest of us.
XkxXXX
BAAhAAAhhH
Everyone needs to go to http://www.nopaypal.com This problem is widespread. I used to have an account a few years back with Paypal, until my account was hi-jacked by someone in Ukraine! I received huge credit card bills showing Paypal User accounts. Without verifying with me, someone in the Ukraine was able to change my paypal mailing address to them and they went ahead, leaving my CC number the same!!! I was able to contact the Paypal user account names thru Ebay, because they used the same user names, and was able to stop some future charges. It took me a half year to clear this nightmare up, phone calls to the Secret Service (!) to track down the Ukraine ISP/user and weeks to finally get Paypal to cancel my account.
Beware!!! Go to nopaypal.com
I try not to use Paypal whenever possible for one reason and one reason alone. They are anti-gun, and my website is an online firearms auction site. Statcounter is a very handy service and I’ve benefitted from their free offering. Please get away from Paypal whenever you can. They are leftist garbage in my humble opinion and very antagonistic to the Constitution of the United States. I understand people will continue to use it, and I still offer it on my website, but only because they are so widely used.
Have ben with PayPal for years and never had an once of trouble. But everyone must be very careful to update the expiry date and the last three numbers on the back of the card when a new card is issued. But double billing sounds bad. I really reaaly want Sat Counter to stay with PayPal for good and have the issues cleared up.
Rolf
For those of you who think you are stuck with a PayPal account that you do not want; Simply contact your credit card company, ask them to cancel the account with that number and issue a new card with a different number. I got so feed up with their dishonest ways of not responding, etc. I did that over a year ago. In using PayPal you are only paying more and more to eBay because PayPal and eBay are one and the same. After all the fees you pay IN THE NAME OF eBAY, why pay it again and even be charged for the postage you have had to charge your customers in order to ship them their merchandise??????
As a seller who accepts Paypay on my web site, I totally sympathize. A year ago PayPal froze my account for absolutely no reason that it could or would adequately explain. After more than a month of utter frustration and lost business (and what amounted to a demand for ransom from PayPal to unfreeze my account) at the worst possible time, I filed a complaint with the consumer protection unit office of my State Attorney General’s office. A few days later, a representative from that office called PayPal on my behalf, and my account was UNfrozen immediately.
PayPal sucks beyond measure. The more attention you bring to this issue the better as far as I’m concerned. Good luck!
This is the first time any user with your status has gone public about PayPal in this way in a mailing to me as one of its users.
I don’t much care if some of the people feeding back here consider you are smearing them.
They deserve it. Maybe more PayPal account holders should stand up and be counted. currently the only effectively way out seems to be the door, and that is what I recently decided to do – i.e. stop using both Ebay and Paypal altogether.
I had some unpleasant experiences with payments (or lack thereof), and neither of these organisations could effectively address the problems.
Their so-called “customer service” is a joke and communicating with them is like playing footsie with robots.
Another thing that worries me about Paypal is that it seems to be widely misused by scammers and other criminals. Paypal do not seem to be able to prevent it. One wonders if they – or some of their staff – are themselves involved in shady dealings.
I am very happy with statcounter. Keep up the good work. It’s important when establishing a brand to keep it clean and you would do well to find another payment collection system.